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Program

Artist: Lindsey Red-tail Title: Rainbow Serpent Performers: Lindsey Red-tail, Rainbow, Water, Light, Tree, Ancestors Bio: Lindsey Red-tail is a non-binary Dance Artist/Choreographer, Medicine Gatherer and Shapeshifter in the community. Born and raised on unceded Tongva Land in Altadena, they grew up in a home of eclectic world music with Cherokee, Nahuatl/Mexican and African American roots. Moved by an Ancestor of Wind they are guided by a deep connection to Nature Spirits. “Taking time to witness Nature always in communication alongside us, we can receive messages and transform our personal narrative, creating a new story.” They have found that Nature is able to help with processing complex stories that cannot be rationalized. “When I sit and watch the Hawks circle in the breeze, I can listen for messages, I can hear our Ancestors.” Over the last decade Red-tail toured with Stephanie Zaletel/szalt dance co., where they learned the art of being present, dance as ritual and dance as everything, including the mundane. They also made their own dances with co-workers and collaborators. Red-tail taught full time at Renaissance Arts Academy grades k-12 and later as a guest artist for various schools. They have staged pieces with the LA Contemporary Dance Company, Cal State LA and Scripps College and most recently created new work for the Redcat Now Festival in 2022 and for the SEED Culture Flow Projects in 2023 with Magnolia Yang Sao Yia and fellow street dancers. @redtaildance

Artist: Tom Tsai Title: Slowly, Surely Performers: Tom Tsai Tech: Meena Murugesan, Orlando Agawin, Jeanne Valleroy Bio: Tom Tsai is a dance artist, filmmaker, educator, and activist. His upbringing in post-martial law Taiwan drew him to Breakin’ and Hip Hop Culture, where he learned the radical creativity of cultivating his own identity. Tom’s work in dance, film, and education is committed towards dignified portrayals of identities who experience erasure. He honors lineage, embraces cultural collision, and infuses personal and political determination with integrity, empathy, and earnestness. Tom has performed his solo works nationally, and internationally in London, Mexico, the Netherlands, Portugal, Sweden, and Singapore. His work has received support from the California Arts Council, City of Pasadena Arts & Culture Commission, Foundation for Contemporary Arts Emergency Grant, Ghost Light Residency, and Dance Resource Center’s Homegrown Residency @ The Music Center. He is a chief collaborator with Dancing Through Prison Walls, a choreographic project that centers the experiences and imaginations of those impacted by the carceral system. tomtsai.tw / @tomtsai.t_t

Interview

Red-tail: Wait, you’re recording already?

Tom: I’m recording already. Recording on the phone. Recording on the computer.

Red-tail: No video, right?

Tom: We can turn the camera away.

Red-tail: Let's get the trees. The trees are nice.

Tom: Oh, like film only the trees? Oh, yeah. That works. I just hope the sound is close enough.

Red-tail: Get closer.

Tom: Trees and sky.

Red-tail: Perfect. Trees and sky.

Tom: Oh wait. Is this for me? Oh my God. Thank you.

Red-tail: It’s chrysanthamom and lavender.

Tom: Chrysanthamom and lavender. Cheers.

Red-tail: To staying cool in the hot.

Tom: It's so warm today.

Red-tail: It's nice. Ugh.

Tom: Rest in peace. To the…

Red-tail: Rest in peace. Yes we found a mouse. He was on the path that you walked up. I have to bury him. I like to do a ceremony, but I haven't had time.

Tom: Really?

Red-tail: Yeah. I've buried a few things. Like, usually birds.

Tom: Like, just here in your backyard?

Red-tail: Mm-Hmm.

Tom: Okay.

Red-tail: So I'll bury birds under the trees. That way they have a channel to their ancestors.

Tom: That's beautiful.

Red-tail: It always feels nice. So that's the tree I bury the birds.

Tom: Dang. Sacred grounds.

Red-tail: Yes.

Tom: We should dance later.

Red-tail: Yeah.

Tom: We could do something there.

Red-tail: Yeah. I mean, this is where I practice. Meditate. I try to spend a lot of time with the tree, so I go behind the fence and I go to that tree. It's really supportive.

Tom: Do you ever climb it?

Red-tail: No. I wish. You can't really get to the pine branches easily, but it’s so supportive for, um, emotions. Regulating. It's like seeing a therapist, but like, it works for five minutes.

Tom: Natural therapist.

Red-tail: Yeah.

Tom: Yeah. Like hug a tree.

Red-tail: So this is where I live with my folks and try to stay up here as much as I can. Or up in the mountains.

Tom: Yeah. I mean, just the fact that you have a view of clear blue sky.

Red-tail: Mm-Hmm.

Tom: It’s very rejuvenating.

Red-tail: Essential. Lately I've been noticing a difference in outdoor versus indoor. My body is having a more extreme response lately. I don't know if it's the weather or?

Tom: Like, a negative response?

Red-tail: Yeah. As soon as I go indoors I feel compressed.

Tom: I feel that. That was me during covid. I felt my body caving in and like, going inward. Which does lead into the work that I'm working on. But also during that time I was spending a lot of time walking to parks. So I definitely was communing with nature and trees. Actually, I was doing these time-lapse dances in front of trees and you sort of getting that like rustling effect.

Red-tail: I didn't even know you were doing that. Maybe I didn't notice.

Tom: At the time I was.

Red-tail: Cool.

Tom: I shared some stuff online, but it was more, a practice. You were not being online.

Red-tail: Yeah, but I was also doing stuff like that. Where'd you come from today?

Tom: Today I got a bad massage, so you know. It feels like they spend so much time on my back and no time on my front. So I feel like there's just some imbalance thing going on. It's very disappointing to come out of a massage and be stiff. So, there's that. I also spilled some coffee on my pants. So there's like a giant stain down my leg.

Red-tail: Good costume.

Tom: Yeah, so that's where I'm coming from.

Red-tail: You look rested. What are the signs on your shirt?

Tom: Oh, this is by a local artist. His name is Rob Sato. I like the hand shapes. It's just like absurd.

Red-tail: Yeah. Beautiful. I love it.

Tom: Yeah. Just like the architecture of it. But also the anatomy. The absurdity.

Red-tail: People hands.

Tom: Yeah. That one looks like a person.

Red-tail: Choreography everywhere.

Tom: How about you? How's your morning?

Red-tail: I started slowly, but I am starting something new for myself. And that is a way of life.

Tom: [laugh]

Red-tail: Not in a hurry.

Tom: Oh yeah.

Red-tail: It's so I can process things in the moment and also see more clearly. What's been happening is I've been scrolling the way you would scroll on like social media, but like, in real life. I noticed my focus has gotten a little bit, like, it's just not where I want it to be. So I start with a meditation every morning. It has to be at dawn, because if I wait, there's too much noise. Dawn gives me plenty of time. So I started today and it took me about two and a half hours, but at the end I was like, oh, I got through something. I was able to journal all the breakthroughs that came through and sit with things that I didn't want to sit with. I really need to get used to being with myself. So that's a new thing I'm excited to add to what I'm already doing.

Tom: To get to that level of focus does take a lot of time.

Red-tail: It takes time. Yes.

Tom: And time is not something that feels abundant in the world right now.

Red-tail: Yeah. I always feel scarce. And I don't want to feel scarcity anymore. Having that extra time makes me feel like I have resource.

Tom: Yeah.

Red-tail: And then also, I'm gonna have recordings of my meditations to share with people after.

Tom: Nice.

Red-tail: So I’ll have things I can teach.

Tom: During our WIP show?

Red-tail: No, just like, next year I wanna publish a book.

Tom: Nice.

Red-tail: Like a how to or like a book that's for mental wellness and trauma from the perspective of someone doing it in real time. For people who are gonna be called to it specifically. I'm really excited for that. I might as well put it together if I'm gonna do it. And I've been doing it consistently for about a year.

Tom: Just like gathering?

Red-tail: Just gathering. So we're in our process now. I've been gathering, I’ll do it a few times a month and I'll record it. But now I really wanna do it every day because I have to know the outcome if I do it every day, you know?

Tom: Is that the title of your dance?

Red-tail: It’s the title of the book, Exit Into the Rainbow, and it's light work for healing. It's imagination and inviting, like conjuring. Like if you were to invite a guide or an ancestor, you can think of it like you're inviting the rainbow to be with you as you meditate. The goal is to share an accessible version for people that can't be in nature. I'm lucky that I can go to the waterfall and I can see the rainbow when I want to, but like, some people won't have access to that. So I'm hoping something I record can help others.

Tom: Would you be willing to share locations like that and like, draw maps?

Red-tail: Oh, absolutely. And I would love to also just take people places. I have taken a lot of friends to the water. The inspiration for my meditations is water, light, and then the rainbows just started coming in hot. Rainbows everywhere all the time.

Tom: Word.

Red-tail: And I'll draw. Just really simple. Like, what did I vision. One time I saw a cloud, so I had to write about that.

Tom: I'm trying to remember the last rainbow that I saw.

Red-tail: Yeah. Rainbow is my access to healing right now and my access to art making.

Tom: Yo. Dang.

Redtail: And they come with mantras.

Tom: That's super fresh.

Red-tail: Yeah. It's like a workbook. The one I did this morning took a long time, but then the message after was really clear, which is that I am free.

Tom: Simple.

Redtail: I was like, oh, great. Thanks. So the more I practice this, I'm hoping that that'll just become my default. Like knowing.

Tom: Yeah. I get that.

Red-tail: Yeah, like I am?! It's just wild when you don't even know that you're actually not free or something. I don't know how to explain it.

Tom: Well, everything that we do, like repetitively, it's basically our practice. So the more we do it, the more we become it. Like, driving in traffic, that is a daily practice, you know?

Red-tail: Yeah. And I feel hella trapped in the car.

Tom: Totally. And feeling trapped indoors is basically a daily practice. Right. So it's like, why not have these thoughts of freedom and affirmation.

Red-tail: Yeah.

Tom: Why not spend the time to ingrain that into our daily practice.

Red-tail: Yeah. Thank you, I'm glad I got to share.

Tom: Well, yeah, it’s like, with the dance work with incarcerated folks that I do with Suchi. When we talk about abolition to someone who's not familiar with abolition or social justice, I feel like the knee jerk reaction is always like, what are you gonna do with the bad people? But the thing is, they're imagining a worst case scenario, you know? That’s actually imagination at work. It's like they’re practicing that. They're using creativity to imagine or dream something that could happen. And you know, it's like we live in a state or a place, or environments where that is normalized. That has become people's practice to think of those things. So it's like, why not imagine something crazy positive or something that sounds absurdly unobtainable, and joyous.

Red-tail: Yeah. Might as well.

Tom: Well, like why not? Why not take that same channel, that same mode of imagination, but instead of fear, it's just something that's constructive.

Red-tail: I agree.

Tom: Yeah. I've been trying to tap into that.

Red-tail: I think fear keeps us trapped. It limits imagination and possibilities. Oh my God. What if no one was incarcerated?

Tom: What if there was no war?

Red-tail: Oh my God. No military. I love thinking about that so much. Like no poisonous gasses leaking into people's communities. 'Cause it's not just the action of violence, it's like the creation of military is toxic too. Like, everything that goes into it. Like what could we use those resources for other than that. It’s crazy.

Tom: Yeah. Even all the thoughts. Just all the thoughts that go into oppression or even like defense, like needing to be defensive or needing to protect.

Red-tail: Yeah.

Tom: You either build the wall or build the barriers, or you strengthen internally and create.

Red-tail: It's just so unbalanced right now, walls obviously aren't gonna work. Like someone barricaded in a wall or trapped on another side of a wall. I don't think it's gonna be a long-term thing. So, what are the other possibilities? So, I'm curious about your practice that you started.

Tom: Yeah. 'cause you actually saw my work.

Red-tail: Yeah. When did that start? And like, when did it become something you wanted to perform?

Tom: Well, it came out of covid. Like, not feeling in my body. And there's just like, so many elements that are feeding into it. This is actually very helpful for me to talk it out and really hone in on the main points. Basically I was doing less movement, and you know, stuck on my own during quarantine. Doing a lot of virtual work and sitting in front of the computer. Just totally boxed in. And then, you know, my skeletal structure was just really being molded. Overextended by that. And then I remember looking at my step counter on my phone, and it was like, a couple hundred, you know, which is like walking to your refrigerator 10 times a day.

Red-tail: Oh my God.

Tom: Yeah. And living in LA you would never really walk that much anyway. But because I would be like touring before covid, and I'd be going home to Taiwan. So at least there was more, you know, there was more...

Red-tail: Just traveling around.

Tom: Yeah. Just more mobility. So that really just fucked up my body basically, plus all the computer work. We think about dance being this like expressive, outward projecting thing, but then when that's all angled in towards a screen, it becomes a box. Not just your body, but just your energy goes inward, you know? And not in a good way. It just, um, what's the word?

Red-tail: Feels just compact.

Tom: Yeah.

Redtail: And the bones. I can see like bones kind of like…

Tom: Caving in. So I just started trying to walk as much as I could. And I was also in a lot of pain. Sitting was actually really painful and difficult. When I need to drive somewhere, I'm sitting. It's like, oh, if I want to hang out with somebody, it's like, we’re still sitting. And then, like being a dance artist in community, it's like, oh yeah, I do wanna go see people's shows, but I can't drive there and sit and then sit even more for like two hours.

Red-tail: Ugh, It's horrible. I hate that.

Tom: So it was all encompassing. I just had to get outta the house. So I would walk for like up to 30 minutes and go to all the parks in walking distance. After I taught, I would just walk to a park and then do a little dance. So I guess somewhere in my park walking and park dances, cause I couldn't really move super dynamically I just started moving as slow as I could. And then somewhere along the line I got the idea of recording myself dancing on the time-lapse mode.

Red-tail: I didn't even know there was one. That’s so cool. So you do it for a long time and then it makes it quick?

Tom: Yea so I started with like 10, 12 minutes of just these time lapse dances. And the thing is you need to move slower than you think to have a coherent pathway because otherwise it's just like a jumbled mess, you know?

Red-tail: Okay, so basically the phone actually made it look kind of flowy?

Tom: Yea, well, to make it so that you can distinguish the movement. So you just have to move like really, really slow.

Red-tail: Okay. Yeah.

Tom: So it was this interesting thing of like, the time lapse feature on the phone actually made me move even slower.

Red-tail: Oh, wow.

Tom: Then we think about technology just like amplifying everything and speeding everything up. More effects, more engagement, more views, whatever. But then it was like, I found this one thing where the technology makes you go slower.

Red-tail: Yeah. Wow. You would.

Tom: And I just felt like there was something there. And it was just quote unquote, cool.

Red-tail: That is cool.

Tom: Yeah. Pretty cool. In fact, when things are moving fast behind you, people are walking to the park and then you're like staying steady.

Red-tail: It’s like nature.

Tom: Yeah. But also coming back to what you said earlier about spending the time it takes. It’s like a metaphor for that, me really situating in myself moving slow and really trying to tune out everything else that's happening. So that's where the movement came from. And then everything just built on top of that.

Red-tail: And you still practice it as a daily thing? Or is it more free now?

Tom: Oh no, there's too much going on for me to practice.

Red-tail: Okay. Because, well, that's, yeah.

Tom: We just had a rehearsal yesterday in the space and we had to coordinate all the projections and I am adding another projection too. So we just had to figure out all the tech stuff and I realized how much I'm not in it during these rehearsals. I mean, first I'm in the work. And the runs are like 20 to 30 minutes and I'm just dancing slowly, but also trying to pay attention to all the different elements happening in tech. So come performance time, hopefully I can really tune back in internally. Here and there I'll do a rehearsal run with no tech, just like, on my own. That's nice. And those, those are the moments when it feels good.

Red-tail: How did arc feel for you?

Tom: I'm not gonna say it was nice to do it four times. But gradually it got easier by the fourth time. The first time my mind was just like, totally splintered.

Red-tail: It's nice to repeat though, for that reason.

Tom: Yeah. I was doing it once every hour and each run is 30 minutes. But as it went on I just got into it, just like we were talking about. A practice, you know? So by the fourth time, I mean it was exhausting as fuck, but I was able to tap more into what was going on internally. I could focus more on my breathing.

Red-tail: I saw the second one.

Tom: Yeah.

Red-tail: It was very calm.

Tom: Yeah. Good.

Red-tail: I was like, all right, let's go.

Tom: I think I got the first one out of the way. The first one was like, Jesus Christ, what’s even happening. Thank you for being there.

Red-tail: I'm really happy I saw it because I think it's actually really important. I didn't recognize this before, being in festivals or like sharing evenings with artists, but like, you should really know who's gonna be in your night, 'cause you're gonna share the space. And so seeing you perform informed me in the way that I wanna be really intentional with whatever I'm showing. How much you were present was really inspiring.

Tom: Thank you.

Red-tail: I'm just like, how slow you moved. It was so slow. Like, it's almost not moving. But it gives you time and spaciousness and made me feel calm as a viewer.

Tom: Yeah.

Red-tail: And then when I saw the playback on the wall, I was like, oh, he went through all of those stages. And it reminded me of maybe things you don't catch if you're not paying that much attention to them in the world.

Tom: For sure. Like a butterfly.

Red-tail: Yeah. It just, like, I just thought of, what is this something that I'm not gonna catch because I'm not close enough to it and, and it made me think of something opening its wings, or like coming out of a cocoon or something.

Tom: Yeah. Every time I see a butterfly I try and record it. But they're impossible to record.

Red-tail: Oh yeah, I know.

Tom: 'Cause they're flying everywhere. And, it's like, at what point am I gonna just just give up and realize I won't be able to record it and just enjoy it for what it is. You know?

Red-tail: Yeah. I was really happy I saw it. I miss watching performance and miss the outside inspiration and conversation through just bodies. You know, like we're talking by being in space, but we don't have to say anything. And I love that.

Tom: Yeah.

Red-tail: I miss that about dance and dancers and, I've found it with other beings, which is really beautiful, like trees and birds but it was nice to have that human interaction again.

Tom: Nice. And I know that community building is sort of at the forefront of your practice. So it's like, practice now isn't just like creating work or doing something to create work, but it just seems more expansive for you as well.

Red-tail: Yeah.

Tom: Workshops and gathering people and getting people together.

Red-tail: Yeah. It's definitely started to evolve 'cause things can't stay the same. So they have to either evolve or change completely. Or end. Gathering is important. Period. And I think art making is gathering. And so, whenever I get invited to share something, I'm like, this is important and I get really excited to share because I know this is gonna impact someone.

Tom: Yeah.

Red-tail: It's important for everyone. I'm just grateful that we get to do that still.

Tom: And I think it's also like seeing performance as less of a like, look at me kind of thing. And more of a piece of a conversation.

Red-tail: So I've been thinking about that a lot. I am going to be speaking a lot in my showing too.

Tom: Wait, have you done that before?

Red-tail: I was like, it's so interesting 'cause Tom's not speaking this time.

Tom: Yeah. Usually I'm the one talking.

Red-tail: So I was like, oh, there's room for this.

Tom: But you sang in your last work right?

Red-tail: I did. Yeah.

Tom: Is singing or speaking scarier?

Red-tail: Singing.

Tom: Yeah. I agree. I hummed in Stephanie Zaletel's work and that was beyond what I was comfortable with. And there's a video of it. Jesus.

Red-tail: Singing is scarier because the emotion that comes through feels really vulnerable. And it's newer to me. I didn't think of myself as a singer until like a few months ago.

Tom: Oh, what? Not even like when you were at Redcat.

Tom: Well that was beautiful.

Red-tail: Thank you.

Tom: Yeah. I loved it.

Red-tail: But yeah, that was the first step to just do it in front of an audience. Uh. So now that it's been a year since then, I'm like, oh, I feel a little more confident, and my voice in general doesn't feel as foreign to me.

Tom: Yeah.

Red-tail: And it feels more like dance. So yea, I'm excited to share poetry.

Tom: Oh yeah.

Red-tail: And song. I wanna call it like ancestral…

Tom: Ancestral vibes.

Red-tail: Yes. Ancestral, like channeling. Because I wanna bring in the elements I've been working with by speaking them into the space. I'm not there alone, even though it's a solo. And so like, I'm excited to invite the elements of nature through my poetry and through song and specifically, the rainbow, which I've been working with to kind of introduce that because I think this is gonna be a first section of something bigger. It might be a group piece, but I'm not sure. So this to me is like a prologue or like a before. Kind of like an introduction.

Tom: I just thought of this, there's like a certain kind of plastic film or like paper or something that if you shine light on it, it creates rainbows.

Red-tail: I gotta get it. I need that.

Tom: Ya, so have you thought about like actually having rainbows in this piece?

Red-tail: Yes, I want to. I haven't figured it out yet.

Tom: Or even like, how would you create rainbows with like water and light on stage?

Red-tail: Well, that's what I would love.

Tom: That'd be fucking incredible.

Red-tail: Because I have ways in which it happens here by accident. Like rainbows will come up in my room just with a glass of water at the right angle or in the pool or with my crystal. And so I definitely wanna have a natural rainbow in the space and have it visible because I want people to connect themselves to it and like, see it with their eyes. Yeah. I mean that paper. I gotta look that up.

Tom: I'll try to find it.

Red-tail: I still have two days in the space, so I would love for you to share that. I was like, I wonder if I could bring a big bowl of water one day and my crystal and like just like find it. But I haven't gotten there yet.

Tom: It’s like, create a waterfall. In the studio.

Red-tail: I mean, ultimately I would love to work with a set or like atmosphere.

Tom: Yea, it's already implying like some sort of set or sculpture.

Red-tail: Yeah. Sculpture. I had this image of like circles. So the audience will be in a circle. Like we're all in the waterfall, like with a white, circular mesh or something. And then it's kind of more like you're surrounded in a way that makes you feel like you're in nature or in something. But for this, everything that's coming out is like my voice.

Tom: That room is so echoy. It’s good for voice.

Red-tail: Yeah. So I'm like, let's take this opportunity. And I've been watching an artist, I'll share her name. Emily Johnson. I’m obsessed.

Tom: From LA?

Red-tail: She's from Yupik Nation in Alaska. And she is based in New York in Lenape land. Um, but her work is like postmodern contemporary and most of it is speaking or screaming or like emoting. I'm just like, yes, that's where I'm at right now. So I've been watching videos as a way to kind of train and be in that creative space. Which has been fun. And I think some of the performance is gonna be improvised.

Tom: Always.

Red-tail: Yeah, leaves room for fun. And then some parts have been set for a while. There's a poem I have called Mountain Poem.

Tom: That you wrote?

Red-tail: Yeah, and like one day the movements just came in, like all the movements to the poem.

Tom: Nice. I'm excited for that. I do want to put a poetry element in my solo at the end.

Red-tail: Yeah?!

Tom: It’s mostly because I have a poet friend and I just wanna like, involve my friends in my work.

Red-tail: Yeah. It’s cool. This poem, it’s called Mountain Poem 'cause I was in the mountains and…Hello friends.

Tom: Hey, the birds are out.

Red-tail: The two hawks are here. Yeah, they live in these trees. Yay. They're blessing us. Cute. There's a mouse over there. Dinner!

Tom: That’s beautiful. They're like spiraling closer to one another.

Red-tail: So beautiful. They're big.

Tom: Are they gonna touch? Do they do that?

Red-tail: Yea, they do like their dives. It's really wild.

Tom: Amazing.

Red-tail: Okay. So, the mountain poem is kind of like the anchor for the piece right now, just so I feel like I have a base. Just so I know where I'm coming from and where it came from. And so the mountain poem came from these mountains here on Tongva Land. And I was there early morning before Sunrise and

Tom: That's where you did your meditation?

Red-tail: Uh, that morning, yeah. Oh, god this was probably last winter. And I needed clarity on something and like I was struggling with a question. And when that happens, I have to just remove myself. I have to leave. So I got there really early and I climbed in between two waterfalls. So I was kind of below one and above another. It was cold and the sun wasn't up yet, so I was basically just sitting there shivering.

Tom: Yo. That sounds hella cold.

Red-tail: I was just waiting for the sun. And then, um, I got kind of sleepy, like kind of dozed back off because...

Tom: Hypothermia?!

Red-tail: No, but I wasn't wet.

Tom: Oh, you weren't in the water?

Red-tail: No, I wasn't in the water. And so I had my flute and I played some music and right after the poem came in and it was like really emotional.

Tom: It just like flowed?

Red-tail: Yeah. It just flowed. And it wasn't the answer I was looking for. It was like, this is what the mountain is communicating right now. This is the bigger picture. And it stayed with me. I just heard it. I took it home. I wrote it down and then like a few days later I made movements in the park over there. And I just heard it clear, like it was just like someone was speaking it.

Tom: That's incredible.

Red-tail: And so that's the anchor for the piece, just so that I know where it's coming from and that like, the being of the rainbow or of the waterfall is who I'm honoring.

Tom: Yeah. Amazing. Can't wait to see it.

Red-tail: Yeah. And that's like the main thing right now. And we'll see what comes out of that. But we're still in the beginning stages.

Tom: I'm thinking about those moments when inspiration hits you and it just flows out. Do you feel like you're more that type of creator or?

Red-tail: Now I am. It's changed because I'm not able to hold onto things the way I used to anymore. Everything kind of has to be in the moment or I receive things through wind, so I can write things down and record my voice, but it's actually hard for me to remember things. So they kind of have to decide.

Tom: Because it's so tied to the moment where you can't piece together separate moments 'cause it's not organic.

Red-tail: Right. And when I try it just feels weird. So it's been a struggle, but I've found breakthroughs in releasing. I started this process in spring and I had all these ideas and visions and a big group. And then I got to the end of that little process and it was like, start over. But sometimes you have to. The message I kept getting was start over, start over, start over.

Tom: Sometimes you have to go through all that just to arrive at where you are.

Red-tail: Yes, at the beginning. And, and it kept saying, go back, go back to where you started this journey. Go back, go back. And I was like, oh my God. Where ? And they're like, literally start over. And, and that turned out to be a gift because I love feeling like anything can happen and being in the unknown. So what I did keep was that poem to start over with.

Tom: But that's like the core. So it's almost like you are, you know, just like digging through a lot to find a little nugget of something. And now that's like the beginning.

Red-tail: Yeah.

Tom: Yeah.

Red-tail: I'm really excited to share space with you Tom. It's about time.

Tom: Yeah. We talked about doing a split bill like a long time ago. But I feel like that show would've been totally different.

Red-tail: Yeah. I hope good things come from this.

Tom: They will.