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Program

Artist: Kensaku Shinohara
Title: materials for a new work
Bio: Born in Sapporo, Japan, Kensaku Shinohara is an artist who brings a practice in anthropology to bear on his work as a choreographer / performer. His works have been presented across the U.S. and internationally in Toronto, Kuala Lumpur, Tainan, and Japan. Shinohara is a recipient of Foundation for Contemporary Arts, 92Y Harkness Dance Center AIR, Exploring the Metropolis AIR, Queens Arts Fund New Work Grant, Japan Foundation New York Grant for Arts & Culture to name a few. kensakushinohara.com / @kensakushinohara

Artist: Sam Wentz
Title: Conflict and Intimacy Training (working title)
Performers: Ajani Brannum, Jessica Hemingway, Mao, Kensaku Shinohara, and Sam Wentz
Bio: Sam Wentz is a dancer, maker, and educator based in Los Angeles. He received his MFA in Dance and Choreography as a Teaching Fellow at Bennington College in 2016. He has performed with Ajani Brannum, Trisha Brown Dance Company (2009 – 2014), Wally Cardona + Jennifer Lacey, Jay Carlon, Gerald Casel, Dimitri Chamblas, the Merce Cunningham Trust, Katherine Helen Fisher, Levi Gonzalez, Jmy James Kidd, Mark Morris Dance Group, Abigail Levine, Annie B. Parson, Susan Sgorbati, and Kensaku Shinohara. His own work has been presented at the Bennington Museum (VT), the Geffen Contemporary at MoCA, Human Resources, Pieter Performance Space, REDCAT, and The Tank NYC. He joined the CalARTS School of Dance faculty in the Fall of 2018. @sam__wentz

Interview

Sam: There we go. Let me turn off my notifications. Okay. Um, I also ordered food. It's gonna be here soon. So I might be eating during the interview, which I know that you love when Americans dirty up their little digits and then touch their computer.

Kensaku: [laugh] Are you wearing pants?

Sam: I'm not wearing pants, no.

Kensaku: [laugh]

Sam: [laugh]

Kensaku: How are you?

Sam: I'm good. I'm doing like, really pretty good. I started a new skincare routine and my skin looks really good.

Kesnaku: That's what I noticed.

Sam: Thank you. I'm glowing.

Kensaku: [laugh]

Sam: There's a lot going on. The school year is starting. We have this works in progress showing. Oh, I'm also wearing a Pippa Garner shirt.

Kensaku: How did you get it?

Sam: I stole it from Pippa.

Kensaku: I'm getting one as well, so [laugh]

Sam: Cool. Which one did you get?

Kensaku: The red wine one without the text.

Sam: You got it without the text. What's the point of the shirt?

Kensaku: There are a couple without text, like with a drawing or something.

Sam: Oh, I didn't know that.

Kensaku: I don't know. I forgot what it is.

Sam: I've gotten a lot of compliments on this t-shirt already. Everyone loves it.

Kensaku: Wait, can I see it again?

Sam; It says burn galleries, not calories. Including Stars Gallery. We're coming.

Kensaku: Yeah.

Sam: Just kidding. We love you Christopher and Julia.

Kensaku: [laugh] They're not gonna read this. Or maybe they will.

Sam: Julia will read it. I know she will. Hi, Julia. [laugh] I'm going to Beyoncé on Friday.

Kensaku: Are you gonna perform?

Sam: Did you just ask if I was going to perform for Beyoncé ? I'm so shocked.

Kesnaku: Yeah.

Sam: Wow. [laugh]. I'm so excited. It's the spectacle of the decade.

Kensaku: Have you seen her before?

Sam: I think this is where the interview should start [laughs] I have not. I haven't been to a stadium concert since I was ten and I saw Christina Aguilera at the North Dakota State Fair.

Kensaku: And

Sam: My sister pushed me up to the front, like we were at the bar. And Christina was there within like a throw and I started crying because I was so overwhelmed by all the sensation and sounds. Then I made her move us into like this open field where we could still see her, but from afar. [laughs]. But yeah, I haven't been to a stadium concert since then, so it's been 25 years.

Kensaku: I haven't been to any American celeb things. So I wanna go as well.

Sam: Yeah. Well, there might be an extra ticket. I'll let you know. That would be such a fun artistic trip for us.

Kesnaku: Yeah [laugh] I should be more American, I guess.

Sam: Yeah, you should be more American [laugh]. Wait, what makes an American Kensaku? That's my first question [laugh].

Kensaku: I don't know. Drink more. Eat more.

Sam: Eat pizza with their hands and then touch their computers.

Kensaku: Yeah.

Sam: You love that [laugh].

Kesaku: I clean my laptop every day.

Sam: This is way more revealing than I ever thought this interview was gonna get. I do not clean my laptop every day. In fact, it's filthy and I'm getting food delivered right now, and I'm gonna eat and then touch my laptop.

Kensaku: Yeah.

Sam: Okay. So you're a clean laptop person. I'm a dirty laptop person.

Kensaku: Well, should we talk about work?

Sam: Did you have questions prepared?

Kensaku: No.

Sam: I have a lot [laugh].

Kesnaku: That's the least likely thing I do. Usually I think.

Sam: Ask questions?

Kesnaku: Well, like, talk about work.

Sam: It's a little uncomfortable.

Kensaku: Yea. But, I think it's good. I feel safe with you and, you know, we can help each other. I don't have much, but you will help me [laugh].

Sam: I feel safe with you too Kensaku. I have a good question. This came from Ajani Brannum, which came from Julie Tolentino. Are you a clear dog, a cloudy dog, a clear cat or a cloudy cat?

Kensaku: Um, cloudy cat.

Sam: You are a cloudy cat. You're right. That's correct. [laugh].

Kensaku: What does it mean to the work?

Sam: Um, we're gonna come back to it. I think we're gonna start here and we're gonna circle around and we're gonna end up there.

Kensaku: Okay.

Sam: I am a clear dog, but I think I'm a cloudy cat.

Kesnaku: Yeah.

Sam: I wanna be a cloudy cat, but I'm actually a clear dog.

Kensaku: I mean, you can choose, you have capability to.

Sam: Oh!

Kensaku: Jump between maybe.

Sam: Species and transparency and opacity jumping. Yes. [laugh]

Kensaku: [laugh]

Sam: It's interesting because I was thinking about you as a cloudy cat too. There’s this kind of air of mystery around your work.

Kensaku: Just in general, like my mentality or who I am or?

Sam: Both. Your work and who you are. You're not transparent, which I think is great. It's what I love about cats. You don't know what they're gonna do. [laugh]

Kensaku: Yeah. And one cat is enough in one family. [laugh]

Sam: It's true. But in your household, you actually have two cats, you and Oreo. [laugh] Speaking of cats, could you maybe tell me a little bit about your relationship with Cats, the musical?

Kensaku: You're so good at interviewing.

Sam: I am really just improvising here.

Kensaku: I can tell you're faculty.

Sam: Thanks. I've been working at it. I've been trying.

Kensaku: So, I went to Cats, the Japanese version, played by a Japanese musical company when I was in my first year in elementary school. My mom was passionate about taking me and my sister to see the arts, like ballet and musicals. So I had never seen a musical before, but you know, my first experience was Japanese Cats and I was blown away in a way. Like, why are those people wearing leotards [laugh] and these kind of weird costumes jumping around, turning, shaking hands with the audience…

Sam: They were breaking the fourth wall in Japanese Cats?

Kensaku: [laugh] Yeah.

Sam: I didn't know that they did that. That's so progressive.

Kensaku [laugh] Yeah. I guess they didn't shake hands in New York when I watched it a couple of years ago.

Sam: Oh no. Americans wouldn't like that. [laugh] That's not American shaking hands. [laugh]

Kensaku: They do, but not in the American Cats, I guess.

Sam: Wait, was the whole thing in Japanese?

Kensaku: Yeah. The whole thing is in Japanese.

Sam: Wait, do you remember any of those songs?

Kensaku: Yeah, But I won’t sing here.

Sam: No one's gonna hear it except us and Kate. [laugh]

Kensaku: I can't even think of a song from Cats right now except for Jellicle Cats. That's all I know.

Sam: Will you sing Memories in Japanese, please?

Kensaku: I forgot it.

Sam: I think you should put that in your back pocket for a solo idea. That's good. [laugh]

Kensaku: Maybe you’ve told me this before.

Sam: Okay, well this is the universe reminding you to put this in a piece because it's good.

Kensaku: I was surprised. People do not like Cats that much. Not as much as I liked it. They only had a year or so before they closed.

Sam: The Japanese public didn't like the musical?

Kensaku: No, in the US a couple of years ago. They did it in New York, but I guess it only ran a few months.

Sam: I had it on VHS tape.

Kensaku: Yeah, I like it.

Sam: Yeah, that's something that we share.

Kensaku: I liked it so much that I asked my mom if we could go again. We made it twice and my mom bought me the cassette tape.

Sam: Okay, sorry, my uber is here

Kensaku: Let's see.

Sam: You wanna see what I got? I'll show you. I was hoping it would come before this interview. I wasn't trying to be unprofessional, but my horoscope today said don't censor yourself. So here I am not censoring myself. I got pork buns.

Kensaku: Like Chinese food?

Sam: Yeah.

Kensaku: Cool.

Sam: Very hot. I'm gonna let that sit for a second. Anyway, I really started in musicals too. A Chorus Line was very, very big for me.

Kensaku: [affirmative]

Sam: I had River Dance on VHS as well.

Kensaku: Dance of the Irish.

Sam: Yeah. I was in the Trisha Brown Company for a few years from 2009 to 2014. And the person who I joined the company with Elena Demyanenko, she started off in River Dance. That was like her first big tour. And then she came to New York.

Kensaku: And…

Sam: Started taking class at the Trisha Brown Studios.

Kensaku: Wait, so she taps?

Sam: Yeah. Or clogs or whatever they do over there in the Emerald.

Kensaku: Wow. It's intense River Dance. It’s like cardio.

Sam: Yeah [laugh] It doesn't release much. They're all like vertical sticks.

Kensaku: Well, I think you need to stabilize so much so your feet can move with freedom.

Sam: You can't move fast when you're holding that much tension or else the effort is time wasted negatively.

Kensaku: So, yeah, [laugh] musicals have been my influence. After my mom bought me a cassette tape and the booklet of Cats, then I started practicing, just following the songs and mimicking the movements. From Act One through the end of Act Two. I would do it by myself in my room.

Sam: How old were you?

Kensaku: I was like seven or eight.

Sam: Baby Kensaku rehearsing alone in his room. Do you still find that you work alone a lot?

Kensaku: I'm still the same. Spending time in the studio by myself.

Sam: What do you do in there? I don't work alone, so I don't know what it is you do.

Kensaku: Stretch, take notes, listen to music. Just warm up. I try not to make stuff anymore. I stick to warm up as long as I can. Otherwise I will start to hate the studio.

Sam: I absolutely loathe spending time alone in the studio by myself. And that's why I don't have a choreographic career. [laugh]

Kensaku: Do you consider yourself as a dance maker slash choreographer?

Sam: I definitely don't want to. It's very hard to do as you know. I love making things. Actually, I don't really make so much. [laughs] I don't really consider myself a choreographer because I don't make anything that I present. I think what I'm good at is curating people for process. Actually, that's not true. I make dances. What am I talking about? [laughs] I just prefer not to make steps up. Having danced with Trisha, who I think was pretty singular in her movement invention, it's hard for me to set anything because I'm like, this is all trash compared to that. So there's a lot of comparison involved, but I think for this process, we didn't really make anything. I just kind of retooled this idea that Trisha Brown had and put it on people who I really love and admire in terms of their improvisational capacities and abilities.

Kensaku: Right.

Sam: It's more like setting up an environment for an event to take place. I wouldn't call that a curator, but I'm definitely making space. I'm inviting very specific people in. And I think about that a lot. Like imagining how people would interact, which could be completely wrong. Anyway, I'm gonna try and make this piece into something. [laugh] And I'm scared about that because that means I have to like work and be in the studio. [laugh]

Kesaku: I mean, you can keep avoiding.

Sam: It seems to be working actually. The avoidance as a tactic.

Kesnaku: Yeah. Avoiding the choreography, avoiding that part of choreography you do not want to have or…

Sam: Yeah. I mean, just dancing. How do you feel about the stage? Like concert dance? Do you go to see it a lot?

Kensaku: I used to in New York. The Joyce Theater, where I used to usher a lot. Concert dance was the first invitation to the dance field to me. You know, modern dance, contemporary dance. I still watch it. I still love it, but I don't make concert dance, I don’t think.

Sam: Yeah. Me neither. I don't like it at all. I think I've come to this conclusion. [laugh] It's such a weird form to me.

Kesaku: But also I feel you keep referring to concert dance, whether you like it or not.

Kesaku: We cannot.

Sam: Avoid choreographing, but we can't avoid ourselves.

Kensaku: Yeah because it's still living in yourself, I guess.

Sam: I think for a long time I did try to avoid or just for like, leave Trisha's work behind me, but weirdly I started producing more when I just started to allow it and invite it into the room.

Kensaku: Yeah. No one's saying no to you. I think people still like it if you invite your background in. I think people just accept who you are as a dancer from that company and lineage.

Sam: Yeah. Weirdly, there's more acceptance because they know where it’s coming from. So it's fine. [laugh]

Kensaku: Yeah.

Sam: It's annoying. [laugh]

Kensaku: I wish I had that in my background. You know, technique or company experience.

Sam: But your work is so singular. I think it's so fresh.

Kensaku: Because I don't have it.

Sam: Yes. It's freedom, which is scary because you can do anything, but whenever I make something I'm like, God, this is so derivative of Trisha's work. [laugh]

Kensaku: But also, even if I didn't grow up with that model, like I still have that picture in front of me because it's still living as a model or an idea that people pursue.

Sam: I was just reminded of something in one of your processes, which you've used for a couple of pieces now, where you have this ongoing collection of photos, or images and pictures that you use. What's that about? Where did you collect these images from?

Kensaku: I'm an occasional street photographer.

Sam: Oh?

Kensaku: I have so much attachment to photos, especially taken in a casual way, like on the street, like sneaky.

Sam: Sneaky photos, cloudy cat strikes back. [laugh]

Kensaku: Everyone loves sneaky photos, so.

Sam: Tell me more about these sneaky photos. [laugh]

Kesnaku: I just love them. One time I was so into street photography and I would hold a tiny camera that most people would not notice, but like, somehow I got to take photos of people just walking by, you know? And there was a dance for me in that, like, in a way it was a choreography. How do I take a picture to capture their intimacy? Not in a theater setup way. It was more real and it was more scary. It had more ruptures. People would sometimes notice and say, you can't take a photo of me, and then I would just delete it, and know I discomforted people. It was like a real conflict and I loved it because of that.

Sam: We love conflict, we really do.

Kensaku: Yeah. I think that experience keeps inspiring me. I just use some images that tell some story or give context or inspiration.

Sam: What is it about conflict for you that draws you in?

Kensaku: I don't get to ask any questions?!

Sam: Sorry. [laugh] There was a moment. There was timing. I just saw an opportunity to take a picture and I went in with the question. But we can put a pin in that if you want to ask me a question.

Kensaku: Yeah. You know, because you also mentioned conflict the other day in a talk back at Human Resources, and that was a reminder for me as well. You talk about conflicts too. It seems like you welcome it, but I was just curious, is it different from what I see? What’s your process with welcoming conflicts or finding conflicts?

Sam: I mean, I don't seek it out. It just happens [laugh]. I guess your work can be conflict avoidant where you create a space that’s this kind of dream world where it's antithetical to what's happening in the real world or something. I feel like you can set up certain environments where there's just gonna be collision. And a good improviser doesn't try to correct. The error is the material now. And it's like, how do you not ignore it? I think we both actively work with improvisation, and I think that's part of improvisation, like, what are you perceiving? How are you acting on it? And like, what are you ignoring? Like, what do you not see? On a physical level, I do think it comes from Trisha's work a lot. But if I'm gonna follow it all the way back, you know, I grew up in a chaotic household [laugh]. That's all there. In Trisha's work, there's so many bumps and improvisationally she would choreograph these little flubs and mess ups.

Kensaku: Hmm.

Sam: There's this one movement from this piece called Foray Forêt, where a dancer runs on the diagonal and does a split jeté over center and two guys come from the other diagonals and try to hit her legs at the same time. So she spins in the air, you know, [laugh], it's like choreographing conflict. So that kind of cause and effect and looking at it as something generative and not something to be avoided. Which I think is like a really big issue in our time. People being conflict avoidant and not embracing it.

Kensaku: Living in New York it's always seeable. We live in a conflict 24 hours a day.

Sam: Right.

Kesaku: But I’m just curious, why do we regenerate it in the studio? Maybe our bodies are just so used to living the conflicts. [laugh]

Sam: Yeah. Our nervous systems just wanna keep recreating those patterns. [laugh] But I’m also constantly colliding with my environment wherever I go, [laugh], whether it's in my own house, or

Kensaku: Maybe because we are so used to it, like without the conflict, and the work without the conflict, we just can't stand it.

Sam: It's true. I mean, yeah [laugh].

Kensaku: It's like jalapenos. Some people just can't eat any food without jalapenos.

Sam: Yeah. I love spicy food. I like to be sweating. I mean, I’m very confident and I feel at home in conflict, but you know, there's different types of conflict. And it's a different kind of conflict that we're working with. It’s about play and risk. For me a big thing in performance is the stakes. This was first given to me by Miguel Gutierrez in a workshop. He was just like, what are the stakes? Like, why are we watching this if there's no risk? Like, I don't care. And I was like, oh my god, I feel that way. Like, if there's nothing at stake, then I might as well be watching Netflix. Like where I know that I'm safe in bed and nothing can happen. But if it's about live performance, then yeah. Not saying that people should be hurt, like in an Ann Liv Young way where you get knocked in the head with a clog and have a concussion. But [laugh] yeah, stakes.

Kesnaku: True.

Sam: I don't want anybody to get hurt, but the possibility of someone getting hurt… [laugh]

Kensaku: If we keep doing that piece with the sticks it will happen one day.

Sam: I know. I'm so scared of it. There's been a couple of close calls.

Kesnaku: I know some are intentional, but I think I hit one audience member's foot.

Sam: A foot's fine. That's okay.

Kensaku: Okay.

Sam: The conflict is very, very important. But I think it has something to do with stakes and live performance. Collectively we have been on this kind of healing journey. And I know that’s what Stephanie and Kate talked a little bit in their interview. I don't think this piece is not about healing either, [laugh] , it's just that there are different types of healing.

Kensaku: Yeah.

Sam: My healing is a little bit more scabby. I'm just kind of frenetic. But I think this actually brings me to one of my questions that I thought of randomly. What are you afraid of Kensaku?

Kensaku: Like in general or?

Sam: Yea, but you can relate it back to dancing or art making or life.

Kensaku: I mean, I am always afraid of knowing I might be nothing in the end, you know? Like, I didn't get to make anything important to me or solid. I don't know if I feel that way so much anymore, but just like generally, you know. But that’s what has been pushing me to create more. You know, what comes next? What's the next project because I want to be something. It's more like a long-term scarcity, but also, most artists might be like that, you know, kind of wanting to prove, not to the world, but more to prove something to ourselves.

Sam: Yeah. I was thinking about why I wanted to ask you this question because it’s a little forward. Because for me, I want to be liked. [laugh] I'm afraid of not being liked as a choreographer. [laugh]

Kensaku: You wanna be liked.

Sam: Yeah, and I want people to like the work, you know? I don't want people to not like my work. And I'm also really scared of homogeneity.

Kensaku: Well, you say you wanna be liked as a choreographer...

Sam: Of course I want people to like my work. [laugh] I don't want them to hate it. I might want them to be a little scared of it, you know, just like a little whoa, but yeah. I want people to like the work. I don't want them to be entertained by it tho, like eating popcorn.

Kensaku: Interesting.

Sam: I thought maybe it’s because I'm a Leo and I want people to like me. I'm a performer, but, but it's also because oftentimes I can be a little opinionated about other people’s work and it is about proving it to myself. Can I make it better? Or am I just being a dick? And the other thing is homogeneity. I'm really scared of homogeneity. It terrifies me when everything is the same.

Kensaku: Yeah. I guess I value these days more. People hate it or people do not want to watch it or see that kind of dynamic. A collision between the desire and what's on stage might be more valuable. You know? That's my prediction or finding anyway. So I don't know.

Sam: Well, I think your work has the capacity to do that. The subject matter you're working with, there's an intensity underneath it.

Kensaku: Yeah.

Sam: Which I don't think my work really has. It's a little more like [laugh] I mean, not to say that it's empty of anything, but there's just a different kind of density or profundity or whatever.

Kensaku: Can I ask about your casting process?

Sam: Sure. Go for it. [laugh]

Kesaku: Why those castings or what inspires your casting?

Sam: Sometimes they're just the immediate people around me. I'm like always hanging out with Aajani. I'm always working with Kensaku. Jessica Hemmingway was somebody who I had just co-taught with and we had improvised a little bit together. Then Mao was a former student of mine who I'd worked with a lot. And originally it was just gonna be me, but then Jacob was a student I worked with at CalArts. All of you hold a similar approach to improvisation which I think is just usually the mark of a strong and experienced improviser, just really strong intention. And not trying to correct anything. Wherever you are, that's what the material is and you stay in it until it leads you somewhere else. I would just kind of sit and imagine y'all moving in a room together and I was like, yes, I think this is gonna work. It’s happened before in other times with casting where I kind of look for certain dynamics, like a shared vision or a shared principle. And also a sort of individuality, that's really, really important.

Kensaku: Alright. Yeah.

Sam: A lot of people have commented on it. They're like, there was almost characters emerging in this piece. If you're actually responding as yourself, like your character will come out and you don't have to work on it. It's just there.

Kensaku: In a way we are all solo performers at the same time. But also we have different spectrums of how to do it, which is interesting to me. We show those things in a different way. And it keeps changing the whole time. It’s a concoction.

Sam: I mean, it definitely leads to there being like, no dead time.

Kensaku: [laugh] Yeah.

Sam: My friend Lena after a performance was like, that was like, thrilling, funny, irritating, and like [laugh]

Kensaku: Mm-hmm. [affirmative].

Sam: And I was like, oh, you're describing me. And you know, sometimes you can't help but make self portraits. Even if you don't really touch it. But yeah, it's a great group. It's a really, really great group.

Kensaku: I’ve found improvisation can provide so much information or momentum or, you know, air on the stage. And sometimes I feel like steps or choreography is not good at creating the quantity that improvisation can generate. Choreography is a little slow.

Sam: I mean, it takes a long time. [laugh]. And just on an economic level, it doesn't make sense [laugh].

Kensaku: That’s why I tend to use improv so much. I miss the steps and I admire those choreographers who are capable of generating the massive structure through the steps, you know.

Sam: Right. I always think about how Trisha would spend like six months just building phrase material, like a nine to five. [laugh] Just building phrases. It would take them like a whole day just to build 10 to 15 seconds.

Kensaku: Wow.

Sam: Like, y'all were rich. [laugh] I mean that's directly linked to finances.

Kensaku: For sure.

Sam Like, we live in today, you know?

Kensaku: It’s more difficult to do.

Sam: Yeah. Or you'd have to build a lot of stuff by yourself, which I don't know how that would work because dance is such a social practice for me. When I was in grad school, oh my god, what is her name? Long red hair contemporary dancer who is choreographing on New York City Ballet and just did something with Silas and Rashaun. Oh, Jody Melnick. She was like, you just have to go into the studio. Even if you don't do anything. You just have to go in there by yourself and do a crossword. And I tried it for like a semester and hated it. I need to talk. I'm a chatty Kathy. I've always been like that, getting yelled at in technique class for talking too much.

Kensaku: Maybe you need an assistant.

Sam: Oh, yea. I can get an assistant to talk to me. [laugh]

Kensaku: To talk to or to listen.

Sam: So what are you gonna do for this work in progress?

Kensaku: Uh, it’ll be a solo, but I don't know [laugh].

Sam: If you don't sing Cats in Japanese, I'm gonna be so sad.

Kensaku: [laugh] I'm kind of enjoying the moment that I don't have anything. I don't have anything to say.

Sam: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]

Kensaku: But I'll do something. The other day I was in the studio and I was doing something and I was videotaping myself. And after that I started to watch the video thinking, let's keep those materials, let's edit the structure. And then I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Why do I start to do that because there is a showing. I am experimenting.

Sam: Right.

Kensaku: I am so used to editing or choosing or selecting or it's like audition myself or

Sam: Auditioning myself. A workshop by Kensaku Shinohara.

Kensaku: [laugh] A self censorship. Mm-hmm.

Sam: Censoring the self. A new therapy [laugh]. Um, yeah, I haven't even been in the studio yet. We’re only having rehearsal for three hours before. I'm a little bit nervous. Maybe I should have done more, but I don't know.

Kensaku: Wow.

Sam: Is it big enough for sticks? I didn't even go look.

Kensaku: Yes, it is big.

Sam: Okay, great.

Kensaku: I'm excited to watch. Not super excited for my capability to make it that great.

Sam: But you're excited for that capability to be seen. [laugh] You're going to be wonderful. You're an incredible performer. It’s always a joy.

Kensaku: It can't be bad in a way.

Sam: What?

Kensaku: It cannot be bad, the performance. Like, even if we do bad, we talk about it and we can make it up.

Sam: [laugh] Okay. I have a good question to end on. What are some things that just keep coming back up in your work? Reoccurring themes? I can think of one that's actually kind of stopped happening recently for me. Proximity and distance were always like this reoccurring thing. I would always come really close to the audience and really, really far away.

Kensaku: Maybe seating design.

Sam: Mm-hmm. [affirmative]

Kensaku: Like being more specific. I wanna be specific with the seating.

Sam: Choreographing the audience's eye.

Kensaku: Yeah. Designing it. So it's not just like people surrounding me, more like playing with it and designing what kind of space the audience will create for the performance as a whole. That's always been a number one interest and topic for me.

Sam: It's important. Do you think Kate's gonna put in all the crunchy sounds of me eating?

Kensaku: I don't hear anything.

Sam: That's wonderful. I've been chomping away over here on my yu choy.

Kensaku: yu choy?

Sam: It’s like a very bitter bok choy.

Kensaku: Oh

Sam: It's delicious.

Kensaku: Good for your stomach?

Sam: Yeah. I've been a little farty lately.

Kensaku: [laugh]

Sam: Uncensored the self.

Kensaku: Did you answer?

Sam: Well the proximity and distancing kept showing up a lot in my work, but now that's not really the thing. I think I'm just in a phase of really reliving my Trisha Brown fantasies and allowing that to take the driver's seat. [laugh]

Kensaku: Do you hesitate to mention those names ever?

Sam: No. Because if I didn't it would be plagiarism. [laugh]

Kensaku: Because you are stealing. [laugh]

Sam: Uh, okay. Stealing is a bit much. Borrowing. I'm borrowing, I'm gonna give it back. [laugh]. Here’s your idea back Trisha. Here you go. [laugh].

Kensaku: I don't have any names to quote.

Sam: You're just a genius.

Kensaku: I wish I did. That would help people to understand.

Sam: But you don't want people to understand you, or it's okay if they don't?

Kensaku: Yeah. Anyways.

Sam: Should we start a podcast?

Kensaku: Aren’t you starting one with Ajani.

Sam: Yes, we are. Soon.

Kensaku: Check it out. [laugh]

Sam We'll see. Thanks for talking with me Kensaku.

Kensaku. Let me stop the recording.

Sam: Okay.